Transcript
Rachel: Hey Brittany!
Brittany: Hi Rachel!
Rachel: So it's been on the news a lot and I wanted to discuss the issue of protests, peaceful protests, the first amendment, and domestic terrorism and what those terms all mean and where do we draw the line.
So first of all, have you ever participated in a protest?
Brittany: Yes, a few. Now some of them were kind of for fun, like back in the Ron Paul days we used to like, protest as kind of an act of solidarity, of camaraderie, when just like go to Capitol buildings and pass out the Constitution and hold up our signs. And this wasn't a time when there was so much to protest.
You could say anti-TSA, anti, you know, NSA, all those things. Most recently I went to the Supreme Court to protest when it was the Harvard decision. I liked the decision that came out of there, but we were protesting with the Students for Fair Admissions, the people who were suing Harvard for racial discrimination.
So I've been in quite a few, and then Obamacare I think I did. I've been in a few here and there, yeah.
Rachel: Yeah, I've done a few back in my day. Like at the beginning of the lockdowns during COVID, I was part of reopen protests. We would gather in a parking lot that was empty otherwise in downtown Raleigh.
And one guy started just, he would sit there and he would honk his horn. You know, he was just sitting outside the government building. It was near the Capitol in Raleigh.
And he would just honk his horn, like every 15 seconds. And other people got wind and they joined in. And so we would go in our cars.
And this was back in the day when you were not allowed to like be around other people, like six feet social distancing and stuff. So I just, I remember those days. And at one point the police told us to disperse.
So we did, except for one lady who got arrested and she was standing alone in a parking lot. The police told her to go away. And she was like, you know, why should I have to go away?
I have a right to be here. And her case, like she went through years of legal battles. And then right after that, there was the George Floyd protests.
And then suddenly all the people that thought that the lockdown protesters were irresponsible and horrible and how could you do that? You're trying to kill grandma. All of a sudden, all of them were marching out in the streets and taking their masks off.
Brittany: And COVID doesn't, COVID doesn't get you if you're at a protest. Yeah.
Rachel: It was an eye-opening period of time because the lockdown protests were like legitimately peaceful. But the George Floyd protests, that was the summer of love.
Brittany: Mostly peaceful was the joke.
Rachel: They were only mostly peaceful.
Brittany: Someone on CNN or something was like, oh, they're mostly peaceful. And there was like cars burning behind them.
Rachel: And just, just the, the difference because the peaceful protests were mostly people on the right. And then the George Floyd, mostly peaceful protests were tended to be people on the left and just what we couldn't get away with versus what they got away with was just so stark. And today we're still having protests in the news as we tape this.
And this is mid-March of 2025. They're talking a lot about Columbia University and some students who are, they're pro-Palestine and they've invaded a building and they've kind of blocked access to it. And there's even rumors, I don't know if this is verified, but they took a janitor hostage.
Anyway, and, and so there's a bunch of controversy about one of the leaders is here on a green card and Trump wants to revoke his green card and deport him. And declare that, oh, also Tesla because of Elon Musk and people are against Elon Musk and what he's doing with cutting waste and fraud in government. They're vandalizing Teslas both, I think, just cars driving around and also dealerships.
Brittany: They're like torching—Because a lot of people who have Teslas are not necessarily pro-Elon Musk. So that seems counterproductive.
Rachel: Yeah. So, and Trump has declared those to be domestic terrorism. So it just, it brings up the dialogue, the discussion, first amendment issues.
Like where does your right to peacefully protest begin and end? When does it turn into a riot? When does it turn into like actual terrorism?
And so I wanted to talk about that a little bit. Now, a lot of protest activities are protected under the first amendment. When you peaceably assemble, it means you get together with a group of other like-minded people and say you carry signs or you have t-shirts or whatever, and you make your cause known.
You bring attention to your cause and try to bring awareness to it. That's totally protected. Now, there might be rules about where you can do this.
Sometimes you have to get a permit first and they can't deny you a permit just because they disagree with your political opinion.
Brittany: They can, though, put you into, well, they should be able to, like tiny little free speech zones. I don't know if it's still there, but I believe it is the Arlington National Cemetery has little like cages, little fenced off areas. And that's where you can practice your free speech, but nowhere else.
Rachel: Well, yeah, they're probably taking that a little bit too far, but there's something to be said for your protest can't impede the traffic and getting around of other people. And I remember in the summer of love, there was a lot of roadblocks where protesters, they thought it would be a good idea to get attention by blocking traffic. And so they would stage a mob or a bunch of people holding hands across a roadway and not let people through.
And they would just chant and hold their signs and people would be stuck in traffic going absolutely bonkers because—I mean, you got to get places that also ambulances.
Brittany: I mean, there are people, there are emergencies where people need to get places, people on the way to the hospital, ambulances, things like that. So you are taking someone's, you know, right to be alive sometimes away from them. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah. Emergency vehicles, but not only that, but like, what if somebody has a medical emergency or they just need to get to their pills, you know, or maybe they're a diabetic and they need to get to lunch before they go into like shock, you know, that is a form of kidnapping somebody—of illegally... what's the word?
Detaining them. Like if you're stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic, you can't go forward. You can't go backward.
You're being held prisoner by these people with their signs, you know, and that is not okay. And there were even some instances of them, you know, yelling at the drivers and banging on cars and being very threatening. That is definitely not okay.
And let's talk about the definition of terrorism. Now, terrorism is defined by the FBI as violent criminal acts committed by individuals or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences. So...
Brittany: So put that in simple terms.
Rachel: Yeah. So you're trying to intimidate people. You're trying to create fear in order to get your point across.
Now it's okay to persuade people with a sign and, you know, have discussions, but where it tips over into terrorism is where you're trying to instill fear or you're trying to coerce or force people, or you're causing destruction of property. And that's never okay. It is never okay.
I don't care how good your cause—to, you know, break a window or set something on fire. But it, and it was so frustrating to watch during the summer of 2020 people just getting away with burning down like buildings and entire city blocks, you know, businesses that people needed to get by—small businesses.
Brittany: Now I'm going to challenge you, challenge your, uh, what you said, uh, with something. And that is that, okay. So you said no burning things down.
What about burning an American flag? This is a big issue. This is a big issue in case law with free speech.
What about that?
Rachel: Um, I mean, I think it's disrespectful. I don't like it, but if it's your flag that you paid for and you are not burning it in such a way that harms the property of others or starts a wildfire in California, you know, don't burn it next to dry brush.
Brittany: I don't think we see as much of that anymore, but I mean like during the Vietnam war, things like that. And to be fair, I understand why people were so angry. They were being sent off to die for a war that didn't make sense, but that was like a thing.
And there was a lot of like court cases about that. So yeah.
Rachel: What do you think?
Do you think it's okay to burn the American flag?
Brittany: I know this, my, my, my logic might not be as solid here. I, I understand.
One, I think it is constitutionally protected based on what you said. No one's property is getting harmed. It's your flag.
You didn't steal it from somebody. And I think, again, I think in the sixties and seventies when the Vietnam war was ramping up, I get it because I think there was so much frustration and I think it was the shock of it all.
Look how angry I am. I think we're so desensitized to things now that that isn't even as shocking as it used to be. But I understand—they were being asked to die for something no one understood. And then people were getting mad at a flag burning, but not at the lives of young boys.
And so that I, I can kind of understand that. Nowadays it just kind of seems like really, you know, but I think it should be constitutional, but it's not something I would do.
I think it should be constitutionally protected.
Rachel: Yeah. Um, yeah, sorry. There's, there's a lot of things that are disrespectful or that are just jerk moves, but I'll defend—what is that quote?
Brittany: I don't agree with you, but I'll defend with my life your right to say it.
Rachel: Exactly. I think that was Patrick Henry.
Brittany: Um, it's been, it's one of those things that's been attributed to like so many people.
Rachel: It was me.
Brittany: I said it.
Rachel: I did too.
Um, but yeah, so Brittany, you have a great legal mind. In your opinion, the protests at Columbia and that guy that they're trying to deport—do you think that's the right thing to do? Like, I don't know how much you follow that issue, but is there a problem with Trump designating like the Tesla stuff as domestic terrorism? Is that going too far?
Brittany: Here is what we need to be careful of. And I remind you that when parents protesting the school closures were also deemed domestic terrorists, you know, by the other side.
So what I think we need to remember always is we can be angry with what the other side, the other political side, has done to us for, you know, suppressing our free speech, for all those things, but it does not make it right for us to do the same thing as them, but claim that because our quest is more virtuous or more moral, we're in the right. Having said that, now, I don't know, I am not an expert in immigration law. I don't know if there are certain things with green cards that say like, you can't do this, this, and this while you're waiting for full citizenship.
Rachel: Apparently there is though.
Brittany: And if he has violated that, and if a court decides he has, absolutely, I can understand because that is the rule of law. Now, whether or not you agree with that law, or you think it should be changed—that's a different story. Is it law now?
Having said that, I think we need to be really, really careful of demonizing and penalizing the people we disagree with because they did it to us first.
That's not how government is supposed to work.
Rachel: Right. But if they're trying to intimidate like Jewish students—like there's like 40 campuses where there's been anti-Semitic attacks and intimidation—and the Trump administration, the Department of Education is considering pulling federal funding from these colleges where they're not protecting Jewish students.
Brittany: I think again, we have to define intimidation and we have to define what that means. And again, in my opinion, it is when you cross the line into physical violence. I don't like the term intimidation because I think that can be used by the other side when they protest a squisher to be like, "Well, my feelings were hurt. I felt intimidated."
I think that's a slippery slope. I think you can start using that to go to places. If somebody is microaggression, if you are put in real threat of harm, if somebody is throwing—what did they used to do in the sixties? Like Molotov cocktails, bombs, if people are burning things, if people are hurting people—then that is not okay.
That is no longer a protest. You have pushed that right and you've aggressed against other people and that's no longer okay. I'm sorry I went so long-winded on that. I know we're running out of time.
Rachel: Yeah. I think we'll leave it there for this episode. It's a good question though.
Brittany: I think it's worth debating.
Rachel: Yeah. Talk about these issues. What's the definition? You're not allowed to hurt others, but you're definitely allowed to express your opinion—vociferously even. But when does it cross the line?
And we should always be careful not to cross the line. Peaceful coercion, communication, debate—all of that is great, but interfering with someone else's liberties and their rights? Not okay. That said, don't forget to like, and subscribe, follow the podcast, tell your friends and until next time, see you later.